This is a Facebook Note that I wrote along with comments between a friend and me. I changed his name to Facebook Friend or Friend to protect his identity. Spelling errors, grammatical mistakes, or punctuation problems have been left, not because I think it would be wrong to fix them but because I'm too lazy to do it. I hope they don't detract from the message.


Tina Rae Collins here:

Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That UPON YOU may come ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD SHED UPON THE EARTH, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon THIS GENERATION.

Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the BLOOD OF THE SAINTS, and with the BLOOD OF THE MARTYRS OF JESUS: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Who did Mt 23:35, above, say would pay for all the blood of the righteous?

Matthew 23:37 O JERUSALEM, JERUSALEM, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee . . .

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the BLOOD OF THE PROPHETS, and of SAINTS, and of ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH.

Again, who was to pay for all this blood? What did Jesus prophesy? So to whom is Revelation referring here?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, till all these things be fulfilled.

Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, YE SHALL NOT HAVE GONE OVER THE CITIES OF ISRAEL, TILL THE SON OF MAN BE COME.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must SHORTLY BE DONE.

Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the TIME IS AT HAND.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come QUICKLY; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Philippians 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. THE LORD IS AT HAND.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the COMING OF THE LORD DRAWETH NIGH.

1 Peter 4:7 But the END OF ALL THINGS IS AT HAND: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the LAST TIME: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even NOW ARE THERE MANY ANTICHRISTS; whereby we know that it is the LAST TIME.

John wasn't writing about 2010. He was writing about his own time.

Was the time of Jesus' coming at hand or not? If it hasn't come yet, after 2,000 years, it wasn't at hand.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, NEW Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

If this is the NEW Jerusalem, then what city was it that must have just then been destroyed? Rome? Then wouldn't we read about new ROME? Washington, D.C.? Then wouldn't the NEW city be new WASHINGTON, D.C.? And what city was SUPPOSED to be destroyed to pay for the righteous blood of the saints and prophets? Wasn't it (old) JERUSALEM? (Hence, the NEW Jerusalem could come?) And when was this to happen? In 2010 or during the generation to whom Jesus spoke? Was it at hand or not?

When Jesus came the first time, the Jews rejected Him because He didn't set up a physical kingdom like they expected. Did He come a second time and we dismiss it because, once again, it wasn’t physical like we expected?

Tina Rae Collins
January 2, 2010

Facebook Friend

So are you suggesting that Christ's second coming has already happened and was ignored by and large?

 

 

Tina Rae Collins

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors....
34 Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, till all these things be fulfilled.

It's hard for to deny the above, Friend. How do I get around it?

 

Tina Rae Collins

I meant, it's hard for ME to deny the above.

 

Facebook Friend

Well, this is why this is a point of great confusion for many. Some people say it's referring to one thing and other to another. I've read it myself and have been confused by it. What commentaries/studies/etc. have you read about it? I've always been interested in studying more of this. Of course, the passages in Revelation can't be analyzed so clearly, in my opinion, since the whole book is symbolism upon symbolism.

 

Facebook Friend

Some say He was prophesying the destruction of Jerusalem and others say He's talking about that AND the end of time and how they correlate.

 

Tina Rae Collins

Well, you can't be confused by certain things: Jesus was coming on the clouds. The sun would be turned to darkness and the moon wouldn't give light and the stars would fall from the sky. Jesus would gather His elect from the four winds. And all of this would happen in THAT generation. That much we know. We cannot deny it. Sometime, in that generation, Jesus came on the clouds, the sun turned to darkness, the moon didn't give light, the stars fell from the sky, and Jesus gathered His elect from the four winds--again, all in THAT generation. Now, whatever that was, it happened; and we have no prophecy that it's going to happen TWICE. And since NEW Jerusalem came after this, I think it is only reasonable to think that the city destroyed was OLD Jerusalem, especially when Jesus plainly said that old Jerusalem would pay for ALL the righteous blood shed on the earth and Revelation says that is what is happening.

 

Tina Rae Collins

What do you mean, "end of time"? Where do you find that expression in the Bible?

 

 

Tina Rae Collins

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

There is a time of the end. But where do we read of an end of time? Has Daniel's "time of the end" not come yet? Are Daniel's words still sealed? If so, we've got prophecy in the Old Testament that hasn't been fulfilled. And if that's the case, then the Law of Moses is still in effect.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Then we have:

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

All things that were written (the time of the end and any other prophecy in the Old Testament, including any resurrection, like Job's declaring that even though the worms would eat him, yet "in my flesh shall I see God") would be fulfilled by the time of the destruction of Jerusalem. God can't end a covenant with people and then come back later and try to fulfill promises within that covenant.

 

Tina Rae Collins

Oh, and if you want a good book, read Don Preston's Who Is This Babylon? It will open your eyes. Also, Gerney's cousin Bernie Parsons has a great Web site that might be of interest to you: http://www.christianuniverse.com/study/revelation/revstudy01index.htm. Also, you might want to check out: http://www.christianuniverse.com/study/revelation/revstudy01index.htm and http://en.preterism.com/index.php?title=Don_Preston.

 

Facebook Friend

Unfulfilled prophecy in the OT wouldn't mean the OT is still in effect though.

 

 

Tina Rae Collins

Why not? Jesus said that not a jot or tittle would pass until all was fulfilled. He also said those would be the days of vengeance when everything written would be fulfilled. And, again, how can you end a covenant and not fulfill all the promises you gave in it?

 

Facebook Friend

Wasn't he speaking of His own role? That being fulfilled?

Aren't you using New Testament scripture to say all would be fulfilled but hasn't been yet when other parts of the New Testament say the Old Law was done away with with the crucifixion of Christ?

 

Tina Rae Collins

Another question, Friend. Was Jesus coming a third time? He came once when He was born. Then He was coming again on the clouds to that generation. That much we know. Did He say He would come a third time and the sun wouldn't shine AGAIN and the moon wouldn't give light AGAIN and the stars would fall AGAIN and He would gather His elect AGAIN? Why do we think the time He came in that generation is not the only time He was coming back?

 

Facebook Friend

So there's no reason for us to be Christians today?

 

have to understand context. But He said not a jot or tittle would pass from the Law until all was fulfilled. I think the Law of Moses was on its way out. But they still kept it until the temple was destroyed. Even Paul proclaimed strongly that HE kept the law.

Acts 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and KEEPEST THE LAW.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

The law was "waxing old" and was "ready to vanish" (Hebrews 8:13). But:

Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

 

Tina Rae Collins

What do you mean, no reason for us to be Christians? Just because God's love story that we read in the Bible is complete and not a cliffhanger like we think it is, that doesn't mean we have no hope. It just means that we don't die to remain in hades and wait. We are blessed above all others! They didn't have a way to go straight to be with God when they died. Jesus hadn't shed His blood and nobody could be forgiven. Had God raised Abraham before Jesus died and God accepted His sacrifice, Abraham would have been condemned. That's why he had to stay in hades. But Jesus conquered death and hades. He did away with them. He is the resurrection and the life. Have you thought about what this scripture means?

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jesus is the resurrection to Abraham. He was dead, but he would live again. But if a man LIVES and believes, he will never die in the first place. He has eternal life. He has passed from death to life. There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ. WE, Friend, will never die!

The wages of sin is death. But, thank God, Christ PAID the wage! We accepted the death of Christ for that wage for our sins. So there is no death for us. We live forever. We have eternal life. We will go to be with God. But we won't have to wait for millions of years for Jesus to come back and finish up what He started. It is finished.

All the great prophets waited for what we have! It brings cold chills to think about it!

 

 

Tina Rae Collins

Some say the destruction of Jerusalem cannot be the "end" because an apostasy had to occur and there was no time for one before AD 70. But look at this:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?...
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the MYSTERY OF INIQUITY DOTH ALREADY WORK: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

And look at this:

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the LAST TIME, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Jude saw that this apostasy was upon them. Jesus had said it would come in the "last time."

Also, as I quoted above, John said many antichrists were already there. The apostasy had plenty of time to come.

AND, lest we think the "last time" means just during the Christian dispensation, Paul said this:

2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

The "last days" were not the Christian dispensation. They hadn't come when Paul wrote this and Christianity was in full swing. The last days were the last days of Judaism. That was the time of the end Daniel spoke about.

Oh, and John, by the time he wrote I John, said it was the last HOUR.

1Jo 2:18 (ESV) Children, it is the last HOUR, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the LAST HOUR.

 

Tina Rae Collins

Oh! And another thought, Friend! Jesus said it would happen in that generation. And God waited as LONG as He could possibly wait and still get it in that generation. Jesus started preaching when He was 30 and the destruction came in AD 70--40 years later. A generation is 40 years. So God got it in under the wire. His longsuffering caused Him to wait until He couldn't wait any longer without being a liar.

And, btw, did you ever read about its being the longsuffering of God and not slackness that caused Jesus not to return and wonder what difference it made? I mean, if God waits, all the people die anyway and it's just a new generation for Him to have to be longsuffering with. Waiting doesn't help anyone if more people are just going to be born to die and go to hell. It would just be piling up more people for hell, because we know that wide is the gate and many there be that go in thereat.

I'm referring to this scripture, of course:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

BUT if Jesus was coming in that generation, being longsuffering and putting it off WOULD cause more to come to repentance. And those born, well, most of them would be children anyway so you're not costing a lot of souls.

 

Tina Rae Collins

And aren't you happy you started talking to me about this? You shouldn't have got me started.:)

 

Facebook Friend

But Paul told them to NOT follow the Law of Moses.

 

Tina Rae Collins

Where did he say that?

 

 

Facebook Friend

Well, for example, the whole circumcision thing.

 

Tina Rae Collins

That's a good point. But Jews who were not Christians were still obeying the law. The sacrifices were still being made. And, as I said, Paul plainly kept the law.

The coming kingdom was a process. We say it came on the Day of Pentecost. But people were "pressing into" it even in the days of John the Baptist. Jesus said it had come among them.

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you....

Then we have:

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the KINGDOM OF GOD IS NIGH AT HAND.
32 Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS AWAY TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.

So, in that generation Jesus would come in a cloud with power and great glory, the kingdom would be nigh at that time, and it would be in that generation. And ALL would be fulfilled. Remember, in verse 22 Jesus had said that "all things which are written" would be fulfilled in that generation.

I see it as a process, beginning with Jesus was born and ending when the destruction of Jerusalem came and prophecy ceased.

Daniel 9:24-27 (NASB) Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.

Have you ever wondered why Jesus said that if He allowed the disciple He loved to tarry until Jesus came back, what was that to Peter? What sense would that make if Jesus wasn't coming back for 2,000 years? There's no way John (if that's who this was) could live that long. Jesus would be talking nonsense. But Jesus knew there was a possibility that he MIGHT live. He had just told Peter how he was going to die and Peter was wondering about the other man. Jesus wasn't talking nonsense or saying He was going to perform some miracle and make the man live for thousands, maybe millions, of years. He was saying what He had always been saying: "There are some standing here who won't taste death until they see the kingdom come." And, again, the kingdom would be NIGH when Jesus came on the clouds.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

People standing there were going to see Jesus coming with His angels to reward every man according to his works. He would come in His kingdom during their lifetime to do this.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come SALVATION, and strength, and the KINGDOM of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 

 

Tina Rae Collins

Another thought, Friend. Have you ever wondered why, in Revelation 22:15 when it talks about New Jerusalem, it says that "without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie"? If New Jerusalem is heaven, how are people without doing all these horrible things? Aren't they either burnt up or burning so badly in hell that they can't do anything at all, good or evil?

Also, the bride has just been taken and, apparently, again, everybody else is burning in hell. And yet the Spirit and the bride are saying, "Come." To whom are they saying that, people in hell? This is the bride, married to Christ. It's all over. It's the end of Revelation. And the BRIDE is begging people (the dogs and sorcerers and whoremongers) to come and take the water of life freely. Can people come from hell into heaven?

Facebook Friend

I don't think it was okay to keep the Law. It was being put to death. If you kept it, you were wasting your time because you still needed Christ. If you were baptized even in the name of John, you needed to be re-baptized in the baptism of Christ. If you forced it on others, you were rebuked. Paul even had Timothy to refuse circumcision. And that was one of the primary tenets of being a male Jew.

And that's not to speak of the futility of sacrificing animals still when a much greater sacrifice was still being made.

But Jesus said that there would be angels who would get rid of all the evil things. Surely that would've been written somewhere in history that large numbers of angels came and did away with evil things and people. Right?

 

Tina Rae Collins

Well, you have to deal with what Paul did. He deliberately did stuff to prove to them that he kept the law. Forcing someone else to keep it is another thing. And I agree it was going out and the kingdom was coming in. And, yes, you might be wasting your time, but maybe not. If you were keeping the law because you hadn't heard of Jesus, wouldn't God at least know you were doing all you knew to do to please Him?

As for seeing the angels do away with evil things and people seeing it, consider this:

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other....

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Did people see that? Did they write about it? It happened. The angels came and gathered together the elect in THAT generation.

I assume you mean this:

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

[Or, as some translations say, at the end of this AGE. We have already talked about when the end was and we saw it was in that generation and the end of Judaism.]

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear..

When the angels came to gather the offensive things and those that did iniquity, that is when the righteous would shine as the sun in the kingdom. And when did Jesus say the righteous would shine as the sun in the kingdom? He said it would be after the abomination of desolation. And when did Jesus say the abomination of desolation would take place? In THEIR lifetime! Mt. 13:14 (this very text above about the angels taking out the offensive things) also deals with the abomination of desolation, so this is all one time period.

Here it is again, from my previous post:

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The righteous are shining here. When did Daniel say that would happen? At the end of the days, after the abomination of desolation. And Jesus plainly said that the abomination of desolation would take place when? IN THEIR LIFETIME! Read it again:

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

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But when this happened:

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Shouldn't someone have noticed?

 

Tina Rae Collins

Maybe someone did. We can't deny what it says just because nobody said, "Hey, we saw angels and we heard a trumpet." But, the truth is, Josephus actually SAID trumpets sounded, if I am not mistaken.

 

Tina Rae Collins

However, for me, I wouldn't need an actual trumpet. The trumpet might not be a literal trumpet and it might even be sounded in heaven.

 

Tina Rae Collins

Josephus also said that there were chariots of fire in the sky at the destruction of Jerusalem. Voices in the temple said, "Let's get from hence." A star shaped like a sword stood over the temple for a year. Every eye saw and every tongue confessed (including even Titus's tongue) that the destruction of Jerusalem was God's vengeance and judgment.

 

Tina Rae Collins

Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

 

Tina Rae Collins

Eusebius of Caesarea (A.D. 325)
"For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities" (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 8).

 

Tina Rae Collins

Josephus further says that "no other city ever suffered such miseries; nor was there ever a generation more fruitful in wickedness from the beginning of the world. . .  In reality it was God who condemned the whole nation and turned every course that was taken for their preservation to their destruction. . . . The multitudes of those who perished exceeded all the destructions that man or God ever brought upon the world."

 

Tina Rae Collins

Here's the site where I found the above: http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/c/chariots-in-clouds.html
I haven't found the trumpet thing, so I could be wrong about that.

 

 

Facebook Friend

But what of the description of the end of the world when Christ comes again and raises ALL the dead? And ALL Christians are called into the air?

 

Tina Rae Collins

Ezekiel 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

You think God actually took these people out of graves, Friend? They weren't even dead and buried.

Our relationship with God is spiritual. If the stars didn't really fall from the sky in AD 70 and the street of heaven is not really paved with gold, why do we insist that people are going to literally come out of graves, especially when see from past prophecy that that's not what God was saying?

I guess you're talking about:

1 Thessalonians 4:10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I agree something was going to happen. But was it literal coming out of graves or literal going up into the sky? I don't think we can say that for certainty. And look at this, from http://www.preterist.org/articles/matt.24_and_1_thess.4_compared.asp:

Thus it should surprise no one that the prophetic discourse which Paul wrote to the church at Thessalonica was written against the backdrop of the Olivet Discourse. Obvious as that may seem, the point is usually overlooked in the community known as "dispensational." Yet, Paul wrote as if he was very familiar with Jesus' statements in Matt. 24-25. Paul's statements in I Thess. 4-5 show such a close resemblance to those statements that these conclusions seem unavoidable.

The comparison chart below establishes this point vividly. No only are the principle features of "Olivet" in Paul’s account, but even the order is substantially the same.

Event I Thess. 4-5 Matt. 24-25 [first reference is I Thess. and second is Matt.]

1. Christ Himself returns 4:16 24:30

2. from heaven 4:16 24:30

3. with a shout 4:16 24:30 (in power)

4. Accompanied by angels 4:16 24:31

5. With trumpet of God 4:16 24:31

6. Believers gathered 4:17 24:31, 40-41

7. In clouds 4:17 24:30

8. Time Unknown 5:1-2 24:36

9. Will come as a thief 5:2,4 24:43

10. Unbelievers unaware of

impending judgment 5:3 24:37-39

11. Judgment comes as

travail upon expectant

mother 5:3 24:8 (RV)

12. Believers not decided 5:4-5 24:4 ff.

13. Believers to watch 5:6 24:42


14. Warning against drunkenness 5:73 24:49

[Added later: http://www.preterist.org/articles/matt.24_and_1_thess.4_compared.asp]

We know Mt. 24 was to happen to that generation. We know that Mt. 24 says He would come in the clouds and gather the elect from the four corners of heaven. We know how the stars were to fall from heaven. And we know it happened already. So why do we think I Th 4 and 5 are talking about some other coming? And why do we make it physical when we know the other one wasn't? Was Jesus coming again TWICE?

Yes, those who were asleep were resurrected. Jesus had paid the price for their sin and they were free. Satan could no longer accuse them. Have you thought about that, Friend?

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

You and I have been forgiven. The blood of Christ covers us. What in the world does Satan now have that he can accuse us of? Sure, he could do it before the blood of Christ atoned for our sins. But he can't do it now.

I don't know of a description of the end of the world, as in the earth and the elements. All I know is the SECOND coming of Christ. I don't know about a third one.

 

Tina Rae Collins

Okay, in the passages above, it didn't come out right. The first one is I Th and the second is Mt. But you can see it on the Web site.

 

 

Tina Rae Collins

Okay, in the passages above, it didn't come out right. The first one is I Th and the second is Mt. But you can see it on the Web site.

 

Facebook Friend

I must disagree that we "know" that it happened already. I think that's what we're discussing here. :)

What about 2 Peter 3:10?
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

 

Tina Rae Collins

Yes, I'm sure he was basing it on the writings of Josephus. So I probably shouldn't have even put that one in there. But you have to admit that I have given you a LOT of stuff that it's impossible to deny took place in the first century, just as Jesus said it would. And what do we have to say that anything else will happen? If what happened then was the worst that had ever been or will ever be, then how can a worse thing happen, which the end of the WORLD would BE--worse, I mean?

 

Tina Rae Collins

Oh! You don't think "this generation" means THAT generation?

 

Tina Rae Collins

Regarding 2 Peter 3:10, I do not believe the heavens and earth are literal.

Isaiah 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. [The earth didn't really move when this happened.]

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain....
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Here we have all "flesh" on the new heaven and new earth.

Joel 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Is this not what Jesus said would happen in THAT generation?

"And His voice shook the earth then [at Mt. Sinai] but now He has promised, saying, 'Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heaven.' And this expression, 'Yet once more,' denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken (as of created things), in order that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; for our God is a consuming fire."

God was going to remove the old heavens and earth (old covenant) and replace it with a new heaven and earth (the kingdom of Christ) that could not be shaken or removed. It would last forever.

That's the best I can do with this.

 

Tina Rae Collins

Think about it, Friend. Paul even said, "We shall not all sleep" (I Co 15:51). What did he mean by that? That people will be alive with Christ comes? Duh.:) What would they have thought, that everybody would die and Christ would come and say hey to nobody? Paul was saying that THEY would not all sleep.

 

Tina Rae Collins

And that's what Jesus said--that it would be in that generation and some standing there would be alive.

 

 

Facebook Friend

I haven't looked at these, but someone suggested listening to these sermons. The article is concerning the AD 70 doctrine, which you're describing.
http://www.hebronchurchofchrist.com/?cat=6

 

Tina Rae Collins

My opinion is that many in churches of Christ have not studied the prophets, so they can't see how everything has come to pass. And they ignore or twist plain scriptures that say those things would happen in that generation and that Revelation events were at hand and would be done shortly. They can talk about certain scriptures but they can't explain away the stuff that I have given here. But I will take a look at that. Thank you, Friend.

 

Facebook Friend

Concerning the "literalness" of scripture, if we pick and choose what's literal and what's figurative, we can set up a very convoluted maze of reality. Maybe Christ wasn't being literal when He said:

Matthew 24:15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[b] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time."

Or when he said:

Mark 16:15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

 

Tina Rae Collins

Well, some things are literal and some aren't, Friend. And God knows we have the good sense to know which is which. Otherwise, He wouldn't have expected us to figure it out. We know the stars fell in THAT generation. I think we can understand that that wasn't literally all the stars in heaven falling out of the sky. Now the sun and moon might not have given light literally, as some amazing things were happening. And maybe there were shooting stars. What really matters is that the prophecy about the coming doom was coming on THEM, not you and me.

 

Tina Rae Collins

Friend, you can now find several articles of mine on this subject on my Web site: http://www.mykentuckybooks.com/eschatologytina.htm

 

Tina Rae Collins

Friend, I've been working on getting a bunch of information on this on my Web site. If you have any interest you can go to it here: http://www.mykentuckybooks.com/fulfilledeschatology.htm. I am hoping to post our conversation there too, without your name, of course, if that's okay. Or I can put your name if you would prefer. Please let me know if you mind me posting it.


Facebook Friend
I don't mind--just don't use my name. :)
 

Tina Rae Collins

You got it, dude!:) Thanks, Friend!